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Hardware Tony Hardware Tony

These apothecia directly growing on a resupinate,

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Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Alex Konig, 05-06-2023 11:09
Alex KonigHello fun-guys.
I found around march , a little asco at the underside of a log.

In limburg/the Netherlands, around a little pond but not waterlogged.

Apothecia: ~ 0.5 - 1 cm

(Jelly; crystals )

Spores: ~ 4.2-6.2 x 2.6-3.6 um

( smooth + 2 guttules ) 

Asci: ~ 68.9 - 78.3 x 5.2 - 7.5 um
Iki + ( amyloid)

Slightly pinkish-purple; jelly - transparent.

I keyed out and lean towards "Ombrophila janthina"!! Because of the little spores.

But I would like a confirmation or better suggestion, if possible.

Thanks in advance 
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Hans-Otto Baral, 05-06-2023 11:28
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Hmm, this reminds me a bit of my Ombrophila convexa, which is genetically very close to Neobulgaria premnophila. Are the apos really up to 15 mm diam.? From the photos I would guess 1-5 mm instead.

It is unusual to find such fungi in spring! Mine was on Fraxinus in a brook. Spores *6.7–8.5 × 3.7–4.4 µm.

Would be good to test IKI for the ascus apex to see the apical ring.

Your 6. photo is a mistake (Pezizales).
Alex Konig, 05-06-2023 12:50
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Hallo Hans-otto,
You are probably right, it's my first post......didn't payed proper attention when I downloaded the pictures from the laptop to the phone. ( pezizales-pics).
And maybe the apothecia were a bit smaller but I still keep it up to 1 cm.
Up until now was it a fantastic fungi-start for the year.....saw last week a macrolepiota procera.

The fungi in question had amyloid asci apical and the rest yellow-ish.

( I uploaded new pictures)

[ when I found it , my first thought was small ascocoryne sarcoides but this ones are more jelly and smoother surface......not so rubbery.
Hans-Otto Baral, 05-06-2023 19:04
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Yes it is blue and I think I see that the reaction is strongest below, fading towards the apex. That could fit "janthina". Really difficult this genus, maybe there exist more species than we believe. As your spores do no exceed 6.5 µm I think that my convexa is excluded, as is O. premnophila which is described with spores †5.5–8.5 x 2.9–4 µm.

A pity that ypou are not sure with the scale of the apos. Did you keep a specimen? Then you can try to calibrate the photos by the piece of wood.

Can you exclude a coniferous host?
Alex Konig, 05-06-2023 22:40
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Hallo nochmal.
Apparently, I shouldn't have done any type of witness-testament today and shouldn't have rushingly done the post this morning.


I took out the sample......the piece wood they were on.

This piece of wood is at the longest side 1.5 cm and 1cm broad.

Therefore the "Apos" were a lot smaller than I had in mind. ( I'm a bit ashamed).

5mm seemed to be a fitting diameter.

Also the time of the discovery was more on feeling than on facts.

Factually did I collected the last specimen 02.may.23.

(Ich hoffe , ihr verzeiht mir den patzer).

I can't remember if I ever saw any coniferous trees there , at least not numerous.....but I will better take another look there...

I will not say that I can confidently exclude the coniferous host but I find it unlikely????

I will add another few picture.

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Hans-Otto Baral, 07-06-2023 10:54
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Jetzt wirds schon glaubhafter! Ich komme auf 1-4 mm.

Nadelholz ist einfach zu erkennen: Ein kleines Stück nehmen und mit der Rasierklinge querschneiden (oder brechen). Schon mit einer starken Lupe kann man dann die kleinen streng  radiär angeordneten Poren sehen. Laubhölzer haben dazwischen immer größere Leitbündel.

Wären die Sporen nicht so klein, dann würde ich dies als meine O. convexa halten. Eine Sequenz würde es beweisen oder widerlegen.
Alex Konig, 09-06-2023 09:12
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Ich war da gestern nochmal hingegangen, habe die Bäume näher angeschaut......und auch einen mir bekannten Pflanzen-spezialist eben gefragt.

Wir haben keine Nadelbäume gefunden.
Neben dem stamm wo ich die apos gefunden hatte liegt noch ein vergleichbarer stamm " mit rinde".
Die Rinde ist relatief grob......da sind 2 Sorten mit grobe rinde= "populus & salix".

Ich bin ein wenig ratlos mit den holzadern.
Aber ich werde in der Zukunft da mal besser drauf achten.

Ich habe aber auch NEUE APOS gefunden....noch immer/schon wieder da, gerade beginnend aus zu trocknen.

Habe sie auch nochmal Mikroskopiert .....die meisten sporen liegen rund die 5 x 3 um.

Ich werde vielleicht etwas Material nach das Labor schicken.

Wäre ombrophila janthina dan die größte Wahrscheinlichkeit??

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Hans-Otto Baral, 09-06-2023 18:43
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Jawohl, das ist sehr gut: Klar Laubholz (meine Schilderung hat dich sicher zweifeln lassen). Vermutlich Salix (Populus ist aber sehr ähnlich, Poren gewöhnlich etwas größer). Also auf jeden Fall eine Salicacee.

Wenn die Kalibrierung stimmt, dann ist das sicher nicht meine O. convexa. Etwas anderes als O. "janthina" (der Name ist ungeklärt) oder besser O. palumbina weiß ich nicht.

But now I realize that I have a separate folder O. aff. janthina angiosperm with several collections, one for which Stip Helleman obtained a sequence which is very different from "janthina" on coniferous substrate. It was also on dead Salix: Noord Holland, Hoofddorp, Haarlemmermeerbos, leg L.v.d. Linde, 8. nov 2021. I think this the same species as you have found.

Alex Konig, 10-06-2023 12:28
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Thank you very much,
I just recently started to REALLY identify the stuff I photographed for years.

Didn't looked at wood-identification in that way before......I will keep that in mind.


Salicaceae is also very likely , salix ( caprea) did the expert say, would be standing there.

The microscope is calibrated.

The specimen from hoofddorp , was the information which lead me here.

I also saw that "observation" on the NL pages.

I will try to get some dried samples to the laboratory for sequencing.

Nochmals , herzlichen dank für Ihre Zeit und Hilfe.

"Ombrophila aff. Janthina angiosperm"!!

If wanted:  can i update it here when i manage to get the sequence !!

Best regards
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Hans-Otto Baral, 10-06-2023 17:02
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
I would be very glad to compare the sequence. Your last image shows a Salix, perhaps alba but of course not caprea.
Alex Konig, 12-06-2023 07:08
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
????oh ja ich seh es jetzt auch.

I know even less from trees as i know about fungi.
I maybe messed it up in the translation from NL local name to the taxon.
I looked it up , you're right again.
Thank you very much.
Alex Konig, 28-08-2023 11:04
Alex Konig
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Hello zotto,
As promised , fast update about this one.

I sended it to alvalab for sequencing and it came back " NEOBULGARIA koningiana 98%" .

After this, someone analyzed the sequence and would put it next to "neobulgaria premnophila".

So it's apparently a NEOBULGARIA.

Hans-Otto Baral, 28-08-2023 11:37
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ombrophila or neobulgaria sl
Dear Alex

Stip already sent me the sequence. It is a difficult matter because of genetic variation. Your find has 7 nt ITS difference (1.5%) to Linde's finds (SBRH1049 = SBRH1023). Anyway it could be that those five sequences that I have in my neighbor-joining tree as aff. premnophila are conspecific (see attach).

As you can see, the type of Ombrophila, O. pura, clusters within the assemblage of Neobulgaria taxa (premnophila, alba), whereas the type of Neobulgaria, N. pura, is distant. From morphology I never hesitated to put Neobulgaria in synonymy of Ombrophila, which is genetically confirmed. A slight problem is that O. violacea has so few sequences.

A find by Francois Valade (as violacea) falls very close to your 41196 and differs in the ITS only by 3 nt (not yet in the tree).

GenBank has a misidentified O. violacea which is Cudoniella cf. clavus.

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