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champignon sur bryophyte
Milanka Tanaskovic,
02-02-2014 23:37
Voici un champignon récolté le 4 janvier sur Mnium affine en forêt de Fontainebleau
(77) ; un seul exemplaire de 5mm.
Est-ce que quelqu'un parmi vous a une idée?
Merci d'avance.
Mila
Hans-Otto Baral,
03-02-2014 09:40
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hi Mila
this looks like a Peziza to me although I am not sure that a helotialean species can be excluded. Curved paraphyses look characteristic, but where do they occur? With at least double resolution of your pics I could perhaps be more sure.
Zotto
this looks like a Peziza to me although I am not sure that a helotialean species can be excluded. Curved paraphyses look characteristic, but where do they occur? With at least double resolution of your pics I could perhaps be more sure.
Zotto
Michel Hairaud,
03-02-2014 09:59
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Bonjour Mila,
Avais tu la certitude que le bryophyte était le véritable support ?
Les spores m'évoquent plutôt un Ciboria mais en regardant la réaction à l'iode, je ne vois pas celle d'une Sclerotiniaceae et je me demande même s'il n'y a pas d'opercules à certains asques.
Amitiés
Michel
Avais tu la certitude que le bryophyte était le véritable support ?
Les spores m'évoquent plutôt un Ciboria mais en regardant la réaction à l'iode, je ne vois pas celle d'une Sclerotiniaceae et je me demande même s'il n'y a pas d'opercules à certains asques.
Amitiés
Michel
Milanka Tanaskovic,
03-02-2014 13:59
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Merci Michel et Zotto
Les photos en plus haute résolution envoyé en privée.
Mila
Hans-Otto Baral,
03-02-2014 16:45
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Cher Mila
I attach here some of your pics in higher resolution. I see an operculum in some of them. The amyloid ring is indeed somewhat similar to Sclerotiniaceae, but the operculum and the ellipsoid spores with a striking nucleus in the centre point to a Peziza in my opinion.
A section of the whole apothecium would be helpful to see the texture, cell size, and the layers.
Zotto
I attach here some of your pics in higher resolution. I see an operculum in some of them. The amyloid ring is indeed somewhat similar to Sclerotiniaceae, but the operculum and the ellipsoid spores with a striking nucleus in the centre point to a Peziza in my opinion.
A section of the whole apothecium would be helpful to see the texture, cell size, and the layers.
Zotto
Uwe Lindemann,
03-02-2014 20:15
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hi to all,
it could be a Thecotheus species. Two years ago I found a very similiar collection which grows also on mosses at a place which was urinated by sheeps and hares. First I thought also of Bryoscyphus or something similar, but the asci were also operculate.
Lastly Dirk and I determinated it as Thecotheus cf. uncinatus. The mature spores were finely warted, the immature spores were smooth.
Best, Uwe
it could be a Thecotheus species. Two years ago I found a very similiar collection which grows also on mosses at a place which was urinated by sheeps and hares. First I thought also of Bryoscyphus or something similar, but the asci were also operculate.
Lastly Dirk and I determinated it as Thecotheus cf. uncinatus. The mature spores were finely warted, the immature spores were smooth.
Best, Uwe
Michel Hairaud,
03-02-2014 20:56
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hi Uwe,
Did you also have such paraphyses in your collection as in Mila's fungus ? As Zotto said, they look here characteristic for Peziza .
Amitiés
Michel
Did you also have such paraphyses in your collection as in Mila's fungus ? As Zotto said, they look here characteristic for Peziza .
Amitiés
Michel
Uwe Lindemann,
03-02-2014 21:39
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Yes, we had similar paraphyses.
And we found near to the apothecium on moss also one apothecium on hare dung.
Due the apical blueing of the ascus we thought firstly of Peziza but we found no Peziza species which fits with our observations. After the study of the literature we come to the conclusion that the genus Thecotheus fits also well. We are not sure concerning our determination but we have no other idea than Thecotheus.
Best, Uwe
And we found near to the apothecium on moss also one apothecium on hare dung.
Due the apical blueing of the ascus we thought firstly of Peziza but we found no Peziza species which fits with our observations. After the study of the literature we come to the conclusion that the genus Thecotheus fits also well. We are not sure concerning our determination but we have no other idea than Thecotheus.
Best, Uwe
Hans-Otto Baral,
03-02-2014 22:50
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
This is great, Uwe! The name surely refers to the hooked paraphyses. Do you have this thesis by Aas where it is described?
Michel, I mean't that they look characteristic in generall, not in regard to Peziza where I do not recall a species with this feature.
But I was unaware of such merely apical and strong iodine reaction in Thecotheus. Those that I know react along the whole ascus.
Zotto
Michel, I mean't that they look characteristic in generall, not in regard to Peziza where I do not recall a species with this feature.
But I was unaware of such merely apical and strong iodine reaction in Thecotheus. Those that I know react along the whole ascus.
Zotto
Uwe Lindemann,
03-02-2014 22:57
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Yes, I have the thesis of Aas.
Best, Uwe
Best, Uwe
Milanka Tanaskovic,
04-02-2014 00:08
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Merci Zotto,
Ma récolte date du 4 janvier dernier. Si tu le souhaites, je peux t'envoyer le champignon sec.
Mila
Ma récolte date du 4 janvier dernier. Si tu le souhaites, je peux t'envoyer le champignon sec.
Mila
Hans-Otto Baral,
04-02-2014 00:11
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Merci Mila, but no, not to me. (not my group)
Zotto
Zotto
Hans-Otto Baral,
04-02-2014 11:14
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
I had now an opportunity to look in the monograph. The ascus iodine reaction for T. uncinata is described as "when fresh the I+ blue colour of the asci occasionally soon disappears, but retursn after some days". Whatever this means, it sounds to me as a weak reaction not restricted to the apex, as in other species of the genus. This is also a key character for the whole family Ascobolaceae.
So I doubt a bit that your and Uwe's finds belong in that genus.
Zotto
So I doubt a bit that your and Uwe's finds belong in that genus.
Zotto
DirkW,
04-02-2014 12:06
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
salut zotto,
i agree with you. the kind of iodine-reaction is typical peziza and not really thecotheus comparable. i recently think its more likely a (perhaps undescribed) probably coprophile peziza. @mila: can you give informations about spore-measure and ornamentation, so we could compare better with our collection? the ornamentation of our find was fine verrucose, more dense at the poles!
one reason that we considered thecotheus was that our fruitbodies were very small (2-4mm!) and nearly colourless.
best
dirk
i agree with you. the kind of iodine-reaction is typical peziza and not really thecotheus comparable. i recently think its more likely a (perhaps undescribed) probably coprophile peziza. @mila: can you give informations about spore-measure and ornamentation, so we could compare better with our collection? the ornamentation of our find was fine verrucose, more dense at the poles!
one reason that we considered thecotheus was that our fruitbodies were very small (2-4mm!) and nearly colourless.
best
dirk
Milanka Tanaskovic,
04-02-2014 23:17
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Bonjour Dirk et Zotto,
Ma récolte date du 4 janvier et l'observation au microscope est fait avec du matériel frais. Les spores sont lisses, de diamètre de 15-19x6-10µm. J'ai posté ce matin l'exsiccata de mon seul exemplaire à Uwe.
Mila
Uwe Lindemann,
12-02-2014 00:52
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hi to all,
I had now the opportunity to investigate Mila's finding. I think it's the same fungus which I found together with Dirk. The spores of Mila's finding are also like ours at maturity finely warted only immature smooth. In Lugol the asci are strongly blueing at the apex (as shown on the pictures) but faintly also the whole ascus.
Best, Uwe
I had now the opportunity to investigate Mila's finding. I think it's the same fungus which I found together with Dirk. The spores of Mila's finding are also like ours at maturity finely warted only immature smooth. In Lugol the asci are strongly blueing at the apex (as shown on the pictures) but faintly also the whole ascus.
Best, Uwe
Hans-Otto Baral,
12-02-2014 09:40
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hoi Uwe
on your photo of your find there are some ochre-coloured spores. Is this due to iodine or is it a natural colour?
Zotto
on your photo of your find there are some ochre-coloured spores. Is this due to iodine or is it a natural colour?
Zotto
Uwe Lindemann,
12-02-2014 09:58
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
It's due to iodine.
Best, Uwe
Best, Uwe
Mirek Gryc,
22-11-2019 19:58
Re : champignon sur bryophyte
Hello
Sorry to use this thread but I'm pretty sure I found the same species of mushroom.
I found it a week earlier but the fruiting bodies were completely immature.
They grew on plant debris and moss soaked with feces.
All features match the presented in this thread. However, no one mentions the outer surface of the fruiting body. In my sporocarps on the outer surface there were thinner hyphae covering the entire sporocarps. Have you seen it too?
Sorry to use this thread but I'm pretty sure I found the same species of mushroom.
I found it a week earlier but the fruiting bodies were completely immature.
They grew on plant debris and moss soaked with feces.
All features match the presented in this thread. However, no one mentions the outer surface of the fruiting body. In my sporocarps on the outer surface there were thinner hyphae covering the entire sporocarps. Have you seen it too?
The diameter of the largest sporocarps was 6-7 mm.
Mature spores slightly rough!
Mirek
