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Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 01:09
Have another try - i am a little disappointed because my last 2 entries just disappeared!

Fungi exs. prae. Gallici 6893 was the first European (French) exsicc. of Stamnaria americana.
It was collected and edited in 1895, just a few years after the first American collections / exsicc.
of the species, which were determined as S. persoonii / equiseti as well.
Unfortunately the collecting-site was not noted on sheet and in Revue Mycologique, but i guess
it should have it's origin in France.
Is there any chance to find out, where Lambotte collected the fungus? - I don't know where.
It would be nice to note the region or place in the coming publikation.
Thanks for help
Erwin
  • message #14194
Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 01:12
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Second image of Rev. Myc. 17
  • message #14195
René Dougoud, 08-02-2011 08:09
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Cher Erwin et Chers Collègues,

Je n'ai pas de réponse à vous proposer s'agissant de votre interrogation. Il a cependant une question d'interprétation que je soulève à propos du genre Stamnaria. Le genre est à la fois composé d'espèces saprophytes et d'une espèce manifestement parasite, S. americana. Par ailleurs, cette dernière espèce a un faciès bien différent des autres espèces du genre. Je m'interroge sur la conservation de cette espèce dans ce genre !! Je suis d'avis que des analyses génétiques devraient être entreprise pour répondre à cette possible, voire probable ambiguïté !

Votre (vos), avis m'intéresse(ent)

Bien amicalement

René

Martin Bemmann, 08-02-2011 09:16
Martin Bemmann
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hi Erwin,

praecipue Gallici means chiefly French, but Lambotte was Belgique I suppose. So it is more likely that his find was from Belgium.

Regards,

Martin
Bernard Declercq, 08-02-2011 11:09
Bernard Declercq
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hi Erwin,
Martin's information is correct. E. Lambotte (1832-1905) lived in the southern (french speaking) part of Belgium. Publications known to me are:
Lambotte, E. (1880) - Flore mycologique belge. Tome deuxième. G. Nautet-Hans, Verviers. 607 p.
Lambotte, E. (1887) - La flore mycologique de la Belgique. Premier supplément. F. Hayez, Bruxelles. 351 p.

Regards,

Bernard
Bernard Declercq, 08-02-2011 11:21
Bernard Declercq
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
I checked and found that several 19th century exsiccata of Stamnaria equiseti, collected in Belgium, are available in BR, a.o. from Libert M.A., Roumegère, Bommer & Rousseau but none from Lambotte.

Regards,

Bernard
Till Lohmeyer, 08-02-2011 11:50
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hallo, Erwin,

es gibt noch einen älteren Nachweis auf mögliche Vorkommen von St. americana in Europa: Carpenter, S.E., Monograph of Crocicreas ..., Mem. N.Y. Bot. Gard. 33: 1-290 (1981): p. 241, hat einen Fund aus dem Herbar Persoon revidiert und vermutet, dass es sich dabei um S. americana handelt. Er war sich allerdings seiner Sache nicht ganz sicher Wir (U.Künkele, H. O. Baral & ich) haben das in unseren Artikel über S. americana in der Mycologia Bavarica 7, 2005: 3-20, auch erwähnt.
Schöne Grüße
Till
NC NC, 08-02-2011 13:33
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hello - thanks to all for your helpfull replies !!

First to Till`s recomment:
CARPENTER (1981: 241) beschrieb den Beleg L 910.261-376 [Peziza persoonii auf Eq. hyemale var. hyemale, ex herb. C.H. Persoon (Gr. 041/001)] fälschlicherweise als über-einstimmend mit St. americana. Meine Neubestimmung weist den Beleg hingegen als St. laetissima var. laetissima aus.

This is a short excerpt of my master-thesis (finished after loooong time 2006).
I posted the sujet: "Stamnaria plus Titaeospora" some weeks ago, to declare my relation on the theme. I am going to publish 5!! new Stamnaria-taxa together with Christian Scheuer (Uni. Graz).
Till, i was busy to comment some statements from M.B. 7, in my thesis - quite a good article!
This S. "laetissima s.l." looks quite identic to americana but differs in J+ Asci and spore-shape.
Compare Enrique's Pictures from Asturia, Spain = S. laetissima var. laetissima / Equisetum ramosiss.
The species should be present in Germany as well nowadays on E. hyemale and possibly
E. ramosiss. and their hybrid - i proved some ancient German samples.
Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 14:01
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hallo Till,

ich hab 2006 meine Diplomarbeit über Stamnaria spp. und ökologische Belange dazu beendet, anstoß dazu gab mein Fund von S. americana anfang Februar 1994 im Steirischen Murtal.
Den Artikel in Myc. Bav. 7 hab ich damals ausgiebig kommentiert, manch ökologische Folgerungen
sehe ich etwas anders nach meinen Beobachtungen und Versuchen.

"CARPENTER (1981: 241) beschrieb den Beleg L 910.261-376 [Peziza persoonii auf Eq. hyemale var. hyemale, ex herb. C.H. Persoon (Gr. 041/001)] fälschlicherweise als über-einstimmend mit St. americana. Meine Neubestimmung weist den Beleg hingegen als St. laetissima var. laetissima aus."

Diese S. "laetissima var. laetissima" ist in diesem Forum zu finden als S. "americana" von Enrique aus Asturien, Spanien, der Wirt ist nicht E. hyemale, sondern ramosissimum.
Die beiden Arten lassen sich gut anhand der J+ Asci und anderer Sporenmaße von S. laetissima
unterscheiden.
In absehbarer Zeit sollen 5!! neue Stamnaria-Taxa zusammen mit Christian Scheuer publiziert werden, dazu ist auch die (aktuelle+ehemalige) Verbreitung ein Teil.
Hab vor wenigen Wochen das Thema: "Stamnaria plus Titaeospora" begonnen, mit wenig Rückmeldung.
Liebe Grüße
Erwin
Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 14:24
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hello Renè, Martin et Bernard,
thank's a lot for your helpfull responses!

You may be right, that the find has more likely be done in Belgium but not in France, or possibly
another state bordering to Belgium?
Maybe it means too much efford to clear this question in the end, at least the concerning exsicc. should originate from a (Middle-) European site, as the substratum confirms ( E. hyemale var. hyemale).
Now i try to tranlate Renès reply best as i can (web-translating), so i can answer properly.
Bien amicalement
Erwin
Till Lohmeyer, 08-02-2011 15:30
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hallo Erwin,

von Deiner Diplomarbeit wusste ich leider nichts, sorry. Ist sie irgendwie zu erwerben bzw. einzusehen? Interessiert mich sehr (und die anderen beiden Autoren sicher auch) . Auf die neuen Arten bin ich sehr gespannt.

Ich habe mich übrigens in Melle angemeldet; vielleicht sehen wir uns dort.

Schöne Grüße
Till

Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 16:23
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Dear René,

When I translated correctly, you doubt that S. persoonii / equiseti is conspecific to S. americana, since the type-species (in common with others) seems to be a true saprobic fungus.
Well, I proved many exsiccata and own collections of the genus, my conclusion, without genetic assurance is: They are doubtlessly conspecific.

Reasons:
Stamnaria spp. show a distinct anamorph called Titaeospora (equiseti) Vassiljevsky. The conidia are always the same, so I could not tell the teleomorph by them alone. These conidia appear before or together with apothecia of Stamnaria americana and S. laetissima s.l. (comb. ined.) on living Equisetum subg. Hippochaete.
More or less identical anamorphs may easily be found on (weakened) E. arvense in late summer to autumn. These primordial stages will evolute to ascocarps in the following late spring and summer. Zotto's pretty drawings you know (HB 3186) represent this S. mougeotii (ined.),
which I could solely detect on E. arvense.
Concerning the true Stamnaria persoonii / equiseti (true synonyms = S. urceolata), the life-cycle equals the former species.
I found as well crowded acervuli with Titaeospora-conidia on (weakened) E. fluviatile in late summer and autumn.

As I think, all species of this exceptional genus are parasitic at least in first part of their life-cycle (2 different spp. on E. variegatum are not proved at parasitical stage).
Furthermore the morphological characters are quite uniform, only the J- asci of
S. americana differ, but may be explained as deviated character,
Zotto is the same meaning.
The genus is most probably strictly Equisetum-inhabiting, due to co-evolution with its host-genus, the species are highly host-specific.
I for myself know 7!! Stamnaria-Taxa clearly distinguishable on morphological reasons (much too long not published), and would appreciate if someone could get interested in genetic analysis of the genus.
My part will be to get the species to be known by all interested mycologists.
You might as well have a look at the subject: "Stamnaria and Titaeospora" I started some weeks ago here at "ascofrance".

I hope not to have confused you by all details.

Bien amicalement

Erwin
Erwin Gruber, 08-02-2011 16:46
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Hallo Till

Die Arbeit ist leider nicht erwerbbar, einzusehen ist jedenfalls in der Bibliothek der Universität Graz.
Sie ist weit von jeglicher Publikationsreife entfernt (musste es dann rasch zuende führen) hinsichtlich Stil und Layout. Der Christian Scheuer wird wahrscheinlich nicht erfreut sein, wenn er erfährt, daß ich Fachkollegen dazu anreize, da mal hineinzuschauen bevor die neuen Taxa endlich "draußen" sind.
In der anstehenden Publikation sollen denn die Ergebnisse leserfreundlich dargestellt werden - daß der Schande nicht mehr werde!
Immerhin existieren die Arbeitstitel der neuen Taxa bereits eine kleine Ewigkeit.
Ich hoffe, eure Wißbegierde diesbezüglich bald befrieden zu können, sollten "ganz dringliche" Fragen bestehen, bitte einfach stellen, ich gebe gerne Auskunft.

Liebe Grüße

Erwin
René Dougoud, 10-02-2011 10:22
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Cher Erwin,

Merci de votre réponse. Il est possible que vous ayez raison en croyant que toutes les espèces de Stamnaria sont des parasites et que les anamorphes des diverses espèce se ressemblent. Cependant, S. americana est si distincte macroscopiquement et le noircissement des prêles si typique de l'espèce qu'il est légitime de douter de la conspécificité de cette espèce avec les autres. Je crois d'ailleurs me souvenir que le Prof. Korf avait le même doute que moi à ce propos. Des analyses génétiques permettraient d'avoir une réponse à ce propos. Je ne suis malheureusement pas en mesure de vous aider à ce propos. J'espère que vous trouverez cette aide auprès d'une université, ou peut-être par l'intermédiaire d'un collègue mycologue du forum.

Bien amicalement

René







Erwin Gruber, 10-02-2011 13:13
Re:Fungi exsiccati praecipuae Gallici 6893
Cher René,

I am sorry for having used the term "conspecific" instead of "congeneric" in my last response, it might have caused some confusion.
There is not the slightest doubt for me, that S. americana is an own, well characterised species, distinguishable from the other S. spp.
Well, as you wrote, genetic investigation of the whole genus is most desirable.
In my opinion, the assemblage of 7 taxa (with one possible exception on Equisetum variegatum) is quite homogenous, and appears to be a monophyletic, respectively true genus, having evolved in co-evolutionary dependency of its host-genus Equisetum.
Eventually some colleagues from Graz or somewhere else will get interested and try to prove my theses by genetic analyses.
I had the chance to prove S. thujae Seaver while working on master-thesis, it is clearly to be excluded, it might be close to or a member of Hemiphacidiales (if this group is accepted nowadays).
There is still left the dubious S. hyalopus Karst. on Carex vesicaria, I didn't see it, but it is very unlikely to me, that it might be a true Stamnaria!
As I mentioned before, the whole genus is highly host-specific, some members have proved to inhabit solely one Equisetum sp. until now.

I got enough information to publish the new taxa on morphological reasons, and do not intend to wait for genetic assurance at the moment.
If you liked to contribute pictures or/and drawings, your contributions are very welcome, so far concerning me.
My co-author(s) will have to agree to such an offer, I will ask them when you are interested.

Cordialement

Erwin