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Hi again Could you help me with this paper? NANN
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Riet van Oosten
Hello, Found by Laurens van der Linde on Rubus fr
An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Thomas Læssøe,
06-07-2020 17:11
No measurement at present. Frb tiny, very crowded, just below epidermis, opens widely. I+ blue.
Guy Marson,
07-07-2020 00:10
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Hi Thomas,
IMO it is a Melaspileella sp. - if IKI+blue (without KOH pretreatment).
If it is IKI-neg. it might be a Banhegyia sp. In both cases, the spores are 2-celled with a larger upper cell and they usually are a little constricted at the septum.
Cheers,
Guy
IMO it is a Melaspileella sp. - if IKI+blue (without KOH pretreatment).
If it is IKI-neg. it might be a Banhegyia sp. In both cases, the spores are 2-celled with a larger upper cell and they usually are a little constricted at the septum.
Cheers,
Guy
Hans-Otto Baral,
07-07-2020 07:17
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Hi Thomas
I have no idea what this is. My feeling is that the ascomata are not discoid? No match in Ellis & Ellis?
Zotto
Thomas Læssøe,
07-07-2020 14:47
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
the hymenium was clearly visible when fully hydrated so discoid in a sense. There was a faint blue reaction without pretreatment but I saw no free spores and not septation nor constriction on the spores. The lowest image could be an associated anamorph
Sergey Markov,
07-07-2020 16:10
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Maybe, Ploettnera exigua (Ascomycete.org, 3 (1) : 19-23) ?
It can appear not only on leaves of Rubus, but also on dead stems
Thomas Læssøe,
07-07-2020 16:33
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Yes, my first thought but all that green was not present and that made me wonder....
Sergey Markov,
07-07-2020 17:09
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Here was a case in which green pigment was invisible at first attempt:
but, unfortunately, it does not say how they prepared second variant to see this green pigment.
Hans-Otto Baral,
07-07-2020 17:11
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
I cannot find any measurements in your pics. What is the ascospore size?
Did you test KOH for dissolving the brown pigment?
I compared my folder Skyttea (Cordieritidaceae, asci always inamyloid) but am not convinced.
Zotto
Thomas Læssøe,
07-07-2020 17:39
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
will try to get measurements tomorrow. The pigment go a deep blackishgreen in 3 % KOH - does not dissolve
Thomas Læssøe,
07-07-2020 17:39
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
will try to get measurements tomorrow. The pigment go a deep blackishgreen in 3 % KOH - does not dissolve
Guy Marson,
07-07-2020 18:17
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Based on those species that I have come across, both Zotto and Thomas are right, the "sporophores" are lirelliform when dry and almost invisible. When wet, however, they are clearly discoid.
Guy
Guy
Hans-Otto Baral,
08-07-2020 07:20
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Here was the same fungus:
I have it as Ploettnera aff. conglomerata without remembering th reason for this ID.
Thomas Læssøe,
08-07-2020 10:05
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Now with some measurements and further photographs where the liriform ascomatal configuration perhaps is more evident.
Spores 9,2-9,5 x 3,9 µm, 1-celled, with two big drops; paraphyses with a ± pear-shaped swelling apically, remotely septate ,with a brown amorphous layer above. Asci 8-sporedd, 32-38 x 10-10,5 µm; I+bb after KOH-treatment. "Peridium" rather amorphous, dark brown, greenish brown in KOH. Pigment not dissolving.
Spores 9,2-9,5 x 3,9 µm, 1-celled, with two big drops; paraphyses with a ± pear-shaped swelling apically, remotely septate ,with a brown amorphous layer above. Asci 8-sporedd, 32-38 x 10-10,5 µm; I+bb after KOH-treatment. "Peridium" rather amorphous, dark brown, greenish brown in KOH. Pigment not dissolving.
Thomas Læssøe,
08-07-2020 10:05
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
Now with some measurements and further photographs where the liriform ascomatal configuration perhaps is more evident.
Spores 9,2-9,5 x 3,9 µm, 1-celled, with two big drops; paraphyses with a ± pear-shaped swelling apically, remotely septate ,with a brown amorphous layer above. Asci 8-sporedd, 32-38 x 10-10,5 µm; I+bb after KOH-treatment. "Peridium" rather amorphous, dark brown, greenish brown in KOH. Pigment not dissolving.
Spores 9,2-9,5 x 3,9 µm, 1-celled, with two big drops; paraphyses with a ± pear-shaped swelling apically, remotely septate ,with a brown amorphous layer above. Asci 8-sporedd, 32-38 x 10-10,5 µm; I+bb after KOH-treatment. "Peridium" rather amorphous, dark brown, greenish brown in KOH. Pigment not dissolving.
Hans-Otto Baral,
08-07-2020 11:06
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
According to Maren the asci react indeed blue (bb) in IKI (without KOH), so this would be one difference to P. exigua.
It is strange that both species occur on Rubus, the difference would be the substrate (leaves vs. stems). But Susana's bluegreen fungus was on stems and reacts red.
The macroscopical difference of the present species seems rather striking.
Thomas Læssøe,
08-07-2020 12:50
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
yes, clearly the same as Marens fungus. What is your conclusion?
Hans-Otto Baral,
08-07-2020 13:06
Re : An erumpent, tiny discoid object on Rubus fruticosus stems - Denmark
The only I can do is having a look in Hein 1976.
On Rubus I see only P. exigua there, but without description. No mention of whether leaves or stems.Said to have inamyloid asci, but with the remark that amyloidity is unimportant in this group.
The other three P.-species are said to have IKI-blue lower apical rings. (Hein used Lugol and observed the red reaction in other genera).
Other lit. includes Ellis&Ellis, Dennis 1978: 219, Graddon 1951: 192, and Svrcek 1991: 143. Not looked up so far.