19-07-2018 00:11
Thorben HülsewigHi there,yesterday i found on ground this ascomyce
21-07-2018 11:02
Valencia Lopez Francisco JavierHola a todos/asTengo estas Escutellinia recolectad
20-07-2018 07:04
Blasco Rafael
Hola puede ser la Orbilia que priopongo ??sonre ma
20-07-2018 22:52
Viktorie Halasu
Hello forum,here's another Peziza close to exogela
13-07-2018 17:59
Viktorie Halasu
Hello forum,we found this small Peziza (5-12 mm di
17-07-2018 21:24
BERNARD CLESSE
Voici un asco blanc récolté dans un fossé tourb
18-07-2018 18:33
Guillaume EyssartierBonjour à tous, je vous envoie cet étrange asco
Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Jan-Arne Mentken,
15-04-2018 10:16
Good morning everyone,yesterday we found one Ciboria with the diameter of 0,8 mm on wet sphagnum. Unfortunately wer aren't sure if the seed is from betula or alnus. Birches (betula) were around 30 metres away from the locality, alnus (alders) weren't close. The spores are around 11-12,5 x 4-5 µm, hyaline and verrucose.
Different literature gives different spore lengths for both Ciboria seminicola (=alni) and Ciboria betulae (including the documentations on Zotto's page). Most of the time the described spore lengths are longer than ours. Can someone determine whether the seed is from betula or alnus and the Ciboria has to be Ciboria seminicola (= alni) or Ciboria betulae?
Thanks in advance and best regards,
Jan-Arne
Hans-Otto Baral,
15-04-2018 20:51
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Betula seeds have wings, Alnus seeds apparently not, but the wings may sometimes disappear when a Ciboria grows on them.
My feeling is, when I look at my folders, that spore shape is different, apart from slightly longer spores in C. seminicola. Your spores fit much better C. betulae. But I have seen very few samples of C. seminicola, so maybe the difference is accidental.
With molecular data the matter of species distinction is not yet explored, I only know of sequences from C. betulae. So whether the two taxa are really distinct is not clear to me.
My feeling is, when I look at my folders, that spore shape is different, apart from slightly longer spores in C. seminicola. Your spores fit much better C. betulae. But I have seen very few samples of C. seminicola, so maybe the difference is accidental.
With molecular data the matter of species distinction is not yet explored, I only know of sequences from C. betulae. So whether the two taxa are really distinct is not clear to me.
Jan-Arne Mentken,
15-04-2018 23:42
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Hi Zotto,
the possible loss of the seed wings was the main reason why we doubted the safe determination as Ciboria seminicola. Thank you for your opinion that approves these doubts. I'm curious of what future sequence analyses will show.
Vielen Dank und beste Grüße
Jan-Arne
the possible loss of the seed wings was the main reason why we doubted the safe determination as Ciboria seminicola. Thank you for your opinion that approves these doubts. I'm curious of what future sequence analyses will show.
Vielen Dank und beste Grüße
Jan-Arne
Martin Bemmann,
16-04-2018 21:05
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Hi Jan-Arne and Zotto,
concerning the seed: can Carpinus betulus be excluded? By size it could fit well (using the diameter of the apothecium as a scale).
Here is a random internet picture:
http://info.sotvorenie.kiev.ua/content/family_estate/plants/kinds/trees/carpinus_betulus/carpinus_betulus_big18.jpg
Regards
Martin
concerning the seed: can Carpinus betulus be excluded? By size it could fit well (using the diameter of the apothecium as a scale).
Here is a random internet picture:
http://info.sotvorenie.kiev.ua/content/family_estate/plants/kinds/trees/carpinus_betulus/carpinus_betulus_big18.jpg
Regards
Martin
Hans-Otto Baral,
16-04-2018 21:52
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Indeed, Martin we never know. We let us guide from the literature, and there is no Sclerotiniaceae on Carpinus seeds, as far as I remember....
Martin Bemmann,
16-04-2018 22:28
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
There is Sclerotinia carpini on Carpinus seeds. Has someone the protologue by Klika 1923 in Casopis Národního muzea Praha 4?
Regards
Martin
Regards
Martin
Martin Bemmann,
16-04-2018 22:50
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
there is a good chance that this is the right quotation:
KLIKA J. E. (1923): Príspevek k ceské mikroflore — III. Cas. Nár. Mus. 97: 95—99
KLIKA J. E. (1923): Príspevek k ceské mikroflore — III. Cas. Nár. Mus. 97: 95—99
Viktorie Halasu,
16-04-2018 23:48
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Hello Martin,
tomorrow I'm going to the library, I'll try to find it and make a copy of that article.
Viktorie
tomorrow I'm going to the library, I'll try to find it and make a copy of that article.
Viktorie
Viktorie Halasu,
17-04-2018 11:36
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Hello,
the quotation is correct. Along with the previous 2 parts, the article gives a list of some fungi collected in central and east Bohemia with main focus on rusts and mildews.
Description of S. carpini (the only new taxon in these 3 articles) is on p. 98, unfortunately he doesn't cite the type specimen nor exact collection date. I'm not sure which museum has his herbarium, maybe PRM or PRC (since 1922 he was working on Czech Technical University in Prague, since 1951 professor of botany on Charles University where the PRC is located).
The text in czech says: "In the vicinity of Prague (Radotín, Karlštejn [?]) and in alluvium of Labe / Elbe (Sadská), in groves, this september and october, everywhere very abundant. Hornbeam nuts are changed to sclerotia from which the fruitbodies grow on more or less long stalks. I didn't have the opportunity yet to study their development."
Viktorie
the quotation is correct. Along with the previous 2 parts, the article gives a list of some fungi collected in central and east Bohemia with main focus on rusts and mildews.
Description of S. carpini (the only new taxon in these 3 articles) is on p. 98, unfortunately he doesn't cite the type specimen nor exact collection date. I'm not sure which museum has his herbarium, maybe PRM or PRC (since 1922 he was working on Czech Technical University in Prague, since 1951 professor of botany on Charles University where the PRC is located).
The text in czech says: "In the vicinity of Prague (Radotín, Karlštejn [?]) and in alluvium of Labe / Elbe (Sadská), in groves, this september and october, everywhere very abundant. Hornbeam nuts are changed to sclerotia from which the fruitbodies grow on more or less long stalks. I didn't have the opportunity yet to study their development."
Viktorie
Hans-Otto Baral,
17-04-2018 11:47
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
many thanks for this!
It is difficult to make up one's mind with such a short description without pictures. But My guess is that it is Hymenoscyphus fructigenus va.r carpini.
The heteropolar spores and the mention of 3 guttules point there, also the long stalk.
Zotto
It is difficult to make up one's mind with such a short description without pictures. But My guess is that it is Hymenoscyphus fructigenus va.r carpini.
The heteropolar spores and the mention of 3 guttules point there, also the long stalk.
Zotto
Martin Bemmann,
17-04-2018 13:17
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Thank you very much Viktorie!
And I follow Zotto's interpretation.
Regards
Martin
And I follow Zotto's interpretation.
Regards
Martin
Jan-Arne Mentken,
17-04-2018 18:49
Re : Ciboria alni/seminicola or betulae?
Hello everyone,
that was some interesting new information. From my point I can only say that I don't think Carpinus betulus grew anywhere near the location, Alnus did at least in a certain distance, while Betula was quite close. And I certainly agree with Zotto's interpretation as well.
Best regards,
Jan-Arne
that was some interesting new information. From my point I can only say that I don't think Carpinus betulus grew anywhere near the location, Alnus did at least in a certain distance, while Betula was quite close. And I certainly agree with Zotto's interpretation as well.
Best regards,
Jan-Arne